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It's More Than the Bible and a Church Visit
Published on March 11, 2004 By mittens In Religion
Fore-Warning: As you read this, keep in mind that this is coming from a former Catholic/Christian who has now turned to Atheism.

Over the past 7 months, I've been living with a roommate at the University of Michigan who the school paired me with. And for the most part, we've been great friends the whole time. I've always been supportive of him, giving advice, etc., in fact, I occassionally felt like an older brother to him. From the get-go, he has claimed to be heavily religious, listening to religious music, talking about friends he's met at Church, ranted on and on [a lot] about "good morals" and how "God always has a plan."

About 2 months into school, I noticed a change in him: he became much more irritable, frustrated, swore a lot and condemned his faith and his God. At one point during his "evil period," he went too far saying things like "Fuck God!" and "Where the hell has God ever been for me?" and, at that point, I just lost it, and grabbed him, slammed him against a wall, and told him that even though I don't believe in God, I knew he did, so I told him that part of being a good Christian is staying true to your faith during the good times, to be sure, but also to stay true during the worst of times. I let go of him, and he stormed out in a storm of swearing and damn'ing me to the worst parts of the world, etc. Soon after that, though, I think he came around and saw truth in what I was saying, and eventually got back to "normal." Since that point, however, I believe he felt that I still could "be saved" by God, and had made it his personal mission to "convert me."

Granted his goal of attempting to "convert" me would never happen, as I was born and raised Catholic and lived in a rather religious household. Growing up I was required me to attend pre-church "school" and the occasional youth-group meetings, along with reading the Bible on a daily basis. My reasons to turn Agnostic, and later Atheistic were very well-justified in my mind, and pretty set-in-stone, at least for my foreseeable future, and I have remained that way for a couple years now. I've occasionally thought about maybe attempting to go back to Christianity (though I will never return to Catholicism), simply because it makes certain aspects of life easier to deal with, however those were fleeting thoughts, and I still remain strong in my current beliefs.

The previous paragraph was just some background information on myself though, to indicate that although I am NOT religious in any way, shape or form, I still do know a decent amount of information about Christianity, and especially the Catholic set of beliefs. So, even if I don't believe in God (or most of the other things the Bible preaches about), I was able to answer a lot of questions about Christianity that my roommate may have had. Now, I had just mentioned about one of his "evil periods;" however, little was I to know, that these "evil periods" were going to happen much more frequently: about once or twice a month. I've learned to deal with him when he gets like that, but being that I felt he and I were still good friends, I also did my best ot help. And, to support the main point of this article (which will be discussed in the paragraphs to follow), let it be known that he has NEVER ONCE thanked me for helping him, or apologized for his "evil periods", which he writes off as "part of who he is."

To me, part of being a good Christian is more than just beleiving in God, showing up every now and then at Church and reading the Bible. I was always raised on the belief that part of being a good Christian is more like a lifestyle: you follow/trust in God, you treat others like you would like to be treated, you live a self-sacrificing life, and always put other's feelings over your own (which falls under the self-sacrificing part). My roommate and I got in a major argument over this, he believes that in order to get into heaven, you just have to believe in God and show up to Church. I told him that if he was to follow the Christian way of thinking, then there is a whole lot more work that needs to be done if you wants to get into his Heaven. So I preceded to say that if someone was only mildly religious, but was a total asshole to everyone he/she met, never doing a good thing for anyone other than him/herself, then they could get into heaven. He said "Yes," and I just scoffed at him, and gave up the discussion.

If he was right, then I've definately been right about my views on religion all along, however, 15 years of getting raised in and around the Catholic church tells me otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make a religious come-back, but religion is an interesting topic of research for me. Any thoughts?

Comments (Page 1)
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on Mar 11, 2004
As far as Protestantism, especially the more Bible-emphasizing variants, goes, his sentiment about "acting good" not getting you into heaven is accurate. Whether or not he understands the reasoning behind it, I have no clue. The rationale is that any good works you do, however admirable, can't erase the blot of your sin - that can come only through faith in Christ. That doesn't diminish the value of being good though, and hopefully, if you're serious about that faith, good works would flow naturally from it. Separating getting into heaven from acting good on earth isn't supposed to be a license to kick puppies knowing you'll be all right at the end, and I'd be a little wary of anyone who treats it as such.
on Mar 11, 2004
I have actually struggled with sort of situation myself as far as the whole God exists theory. I was raised very religious in a Baptist Church though. I have had many discussions with a few theologists with PH.D.'s, some computer science majors, lawyers, pastors, general church goers, friends, and family. There a few questions and some theories that I have pondered yet have never had answered or justified.. guess I will just have to wait until I die.
(1)Lets pretend that you are God(all-knowing, all-powerful, etc), Satan rebels in Heaven, now you know that he is going to come to earth fuck up creation and take a group of angels with him, wouldn't you prevent this from happening by just zappin his ass out of existence along with his followers right from the get go so not to cause any more problems?
Well it seemed God had a better idea(according to Christians), let Satan steal some angels, fuck up man's and woman's life not to mention the earth and the universe, but you know what, I'll get that fucker in the end type deal. PFFFT!! (1) thought #1 I don't think God exists.
(2)Ok God is suppose to be our Father right? Well either some men out there can follow me on this or you can theorize, If you had a child and again you were God, would you let anything bad happen to that child? Would you let that child be abused? WOuld you let anything bad happen to the child's mother? If it were me I wouldn't. I would not allow a child to be raped, beat on, kicked around, malnourished, etc. If there is a God then he is probably EVIL or one twisted Fucker. Why does he let this go on? Oh yeah I forgot he is gonna get them in the end. BS!!(2)
Ok flip side to the coin. God exists. If that is true then what Christians say about him being always forgiving and understanding. Do they not also say that it is NEVER too late to be saved or forgiven? Well if that is true then there is not a HELL. Why can I say that? Well if its never too late, then when I die and am being 'judged' then I can ask forgiveness from God right? You say 'no'?? Why is that? If it is never too late then why is your answer no? Oh yeah because you are the hypocritical asshole CHRISTian that I have run into my whole life. Figures. But also by this same token that means I could be a raping, child molesting, murderering, stealing, druggie, drunk atheist and still get into heaven with all you so called Christians just by asking forgiveness when I meet up with God. How you like that? You get to share a heaven with good ol me. Don't worry it will be fun. But wait a minute God should be 'getting' me in the end right? See #2.

There is much more I just dont want to hog Trent's space.
on Mar 11, 2004
I don't get into arguments about religion on the internet, and responding optics' post is probably WAY to close to the line, but I can't help myself. I'll chalk it up to cold medication. Just a couple thoughts, not a response really:

Trying to read the mind of God (If God exists, why doesn't he do this or that?) is always a losing proposition, but regarding evil, consider the situation where God does immediately zap Satan, does totally prevent all evil. Guess who's evil? People are. (Yes, there are other sorts of evil too, that's a different topic.) The only way to remove evil is to remove free will. What good is perfection to an automaton?

Regarding it being never too late to be forgiven, I remember a quote (probably C.S. Lewis) along the lines of "I believe that, if one more chance would help, it would be given." You have to realize that belief in the Christian sense isn't just intellectual assent to some facts, it's (in theory anyway) submission of one's will to God. (Personally, I suspect that that attitude is probably more important than having your facts 100% lined up - not that you shouldn't try.) That's not a trivial thing to do. This isn't just a question of being able to say "Oh, I'm dead, there's God, I guess he exists, sorry about kicking those puppies, let's party."
on Mar 11, 2004
GOD IS GONNA GET YOU
on Mar 11, 2004
Good comments so far guys, I look forward to continue input. I'd comment more on what you've said so far, but I gotta run. Will do later.
on Mar 11, 2004
GOD IS GONNA GET YOU


I ain't 'fraid of no God!
on Mar 11, 2004
GOD IS GONNA GET YOU


Yeah, sic your god on someone, that's a good way to get them to believe.
on Mar 11, 2004
I ain't 'fraid of no God!


Hehe, not yet.
on Mar 11, 2004
Syntacs-- thanks for doing that for me.. Im the same way, I actually think if an arguement has started, both sides have already lost, it's just human nature.

Optics-- I don't blame you far saying what you do, the same thoughts once crossed my mind so I felt the same way. I just found differently once somebody with knowledge on all this patiently and kindly expressed the truth of the matters to me.

Trent-- The beginning of this article almost made me turn around, but it sounded like an innocent claim so I read on:) Glad I did, it was very interesting, and it sure has spurred some good discussion.

I don't have much to say now.. soooo
on Mar 11, 2004
This seems to be a even-tempered group. I have a question:

"Is Ghandi in heaven?"

IG
on Mar 11, 2004
InfoGeek-- The question that would need to be asked then is, "what did he believe in his heart?" How can anybody but God and Ghandi himself know that answer? Sorry, you won't be finding a definite answer to that, tho an interesting question.

If you are asking did his good works/righteous ways get him into heaven then the answer is no. Question answered?
on Mar 11, 2004
I take it you're not from the Hindu faith/religion.

IG
on Mar 11, 2004
If you are asking did his good works/righteous ways get him into heaven then the answer is no. Question answered?


An excellent summary of all that is horrible, wrong, and demented about the Christian religion.
on Mar 11, 2004
In order for Gahndi to be in 'heaven' he'd have to have believed in 'heaven', wouldn't you say? Being as he was Hindu.....I'd have to say the chances of you running into him in the christian fallacy of heaven are slim to none. You'd be more likely to catch up with him in Nirvana...or perhaps find him in your garden, aerating your soil.....
But I don't know; I've never been there so I can't really say. My beliefs about death and what happens after you die aren't too popular with the jesus-crowd / god-squad.
on Mar 11, 2004
I think this is where the everyday faithful person and the upper religious echelon part ways. I do not think that people in general believe their neighbor whom they call a “decent guy”, or a “OK guy” is going to Hell. I just can’t imagine a loving God taking a decent, hardworking, loving person and casting them into torment because they do not believe EXACTLY what the book says.
If He is our Father, doesn’t a father understand that his children may not agree with him, but that they still love him (yes, even the teenagers, they just can’t admit it). And does not he love them regardless.
Maybe I need to look up the new, revised definition of unconditional love.

IG
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